Need alot of help!!!

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Need alot of help!!!

Postby mitch236 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:50 am

Let me start by giving you some backround. (If you are bored with this sort of thing, just skip to the questions).

I started skiing in the 70's when I was a teen. We all learned to ski using the same techniques used in the Mogul Logic video (although none of us had any idea about that technique) mostly to ski with a very tight parallel style. I could ski almost anything at that point of my life (I was young!). I never took any lessons.

Then I stopped skiing for about 25 years picking it back up 2 years ago. Last year I decided that skiing moguls was the ultimate challenge for me so I hired an instructor for about 7 days over the past two years at Vail. It was the same guy. Since I knew nothing about what techniques were being used, I trusted everything he told me. Now that I have been hanging around here, I realize that what he was teaching me was GS style skiing with a wide stance and alot of upper body movement. I became very good at GS though, but was very frustrated with moguls.

Now enter Mogul Logic. I watched the video endlessly. I have it memorized. I visualized myself doing the same technique as Chuck Martin. It seemed very easy! I was so wrong!!! The first mogul run I attempted was a complete disaster!! By the third day, I could get down the mogul field but not with the technique that ML teaches. I just couldn't get the rhythm or balance thing down. Here are some concerns I have, and I'm hoping you can help me fix this.

1. A&E is so hard to focus on. I can do it for one or maybe two bumps but I always lose my line and then my balance. I'm sure I get pushed into the back seat going up the bump. Is the any exercise to help me stay forward? I tried just skiing staight across the fall line only concentrating on A&E and then I was fine but as soon as I tried to incorporate turning, I lost any balance I had.

2. In the video, Chuck seems to ski right over the tops of the mogul but I find it easier to ski off the sides, is this wrong?

3. The mogul field where I was practicing is on an intermediate slope and so alot of "learners" are there which made the moguls look more like very elongated diamonds with a sharp crest running down the fall line. Could this be the reason I had so much trouble?

4. I'll be in Vail next month. Does anyone know of an intermediate mogul run where I can learn without the fear of getting hurt?

5. Any last words of wisdom???


Thanks for reading and having such an awesome site. There was only one guy last weekend skiing the mogul field using the ML technique and he looked awesome. It looked so easy and flowing, almost like ballet. That's what I want.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby cj68 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:38 am

First off, good job on realizing the limitations of how most resort instructors teach mogul skiing and looking to the right place (this forum and ML).

In response to your questions in general, it takes a long time to become a decent mogul skier. The best thing you can do if you are serious about becoming a better bump skier is to get to a real mogul camp (ML and Momentum are 2 of the best for adults). Watching the videos and cruising this forum is good for surface level knowledge, but to put it into action you really need to go to several camps before it starts to sink in. You need to start with the most basic of principles (which is the mogul turn) and work up from there and there is no better person to teach you this than a true mogul coach.

Whistle Pig off of chair 4 at Vail is a good easy run with good lines to practice on.

Welcome to the forum.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby coloradomogulskier » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:55 am

Simple, Come to Winter Park. Look me up.

This is a fundamental technique issue. Short swing turns needs to be properly explained and demonstrated to you in person. Then you will at least have a starting point.

Chuck's video is just touching on the key points to great skiing. There is a ton of stuff that isn't being addressed in a 1 hour video.

Vail, moguls:

Good flat lines are on Zot. You can then move up to Prima/Pronto and highline to start to get into shape for mogul skiing. Thise three runs should start to give yo the leg and core to begin to learn bump skiing.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby Blanton » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:50 pm

Prima --> Pronto


Not sure what is left of the Masters program at Winter Park but it would probably be a far better use of your time than a lesson at Vail.

Was the person at Vail on the shorter side?
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby jsul185 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:13 pm

Flats, Flats, Flats. Janne Latella says he skis 70% of the time skiing flats and 30% bumps. My 1st mogul lesson was a week at momemtum w/ John Smart. We basically skied all week in the flats. At the end of the day we would ski the bumps for fun but you improve by building muscle memory in the flats.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby Jeffy » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:32 pm

jsul185 wrote:Flats, Flats, Flats. Janne Latella says he skis 70% of the time skiing flats and 30% bumps. My 1st mogul lesson was a week at momemtum w/ John Smart. We basically skied all week in the flats. At the end of the day we would ski the bumps for fun but you improve by building muscle memory in the flats.


True dat jsul! But Mitch, make sure you are working/training the RIGHT things in the flats, otherwise you are wasting your time. And to do that you need to meet with someone who can show what to work on and how to do it. If you are serious about improving, you need to get yourself to a camp/coach asap, learn the drills and then ski flats, flats, flats and then some more flats.
-Jeff
Portland, OR
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby mitch236 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:09 am

Yes, the instructor was on the shorter side.

I definately practice alot on the flats. In fact, the run I was using, Lost Boulder in DV starts out as a flat groomer but at the bottom off to the left side there are intermediate bumps so I practice short swing turns at the top and moguls at the bottom.

I guess what might also work would be to video tape my runs and then watch to see where I'm going wrong. I'm very sure I drop right into the back seat. It takes courage to stay forward when in the bumps.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby mogulsensei » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:39 pm

Hey Mitch,
Good to hear of someone getting back into bumps. More people skiing them, more attention they get from mountain ops.
If you are getting backseat in the bumps I would be willing to bet you also get backseat in the flats. You may not feel it as much, or be as noticeable but you are probably off balance on your skis in general. You hear the term stacked alot in mogul skiing. This concept applies not just to bumps,but all skiing. Stacked is just another way of saying balanced. Obviously this is something all skiers strive for no matter where they ski on the mountain. So if you are out of balance in the bumps, chances are there is something fundamentally wrong with your skiing, not your bump skiing.
Start at the beginning-snowplow. Great drill, learn to snowplow without using any unnecessary body movements. Just use angulation and body mass to turn the downhill ski.
Short wwing turns are a slippery slope to practice. I see lots of bumpskiers making tons of of sloppy short turns. Backseat, windshield wiper ,unbalanced turns. Usually the turn radius is much shorter than the actual distances between bumps. Useless drill.
Make short radius turns in slow motion, driving down into the turn with your body mass, from the knees and ankles. Make them round and about 7 feet in radius.
If all that makes sense typed out and you can put it into practice on the hill, good luck....it is the first step.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby mitch236 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:32 pm

mogulsensei wrote:If you are getting backseat in the bumps I would be willing to bet you also get backseat in the flats.


While in most cases you are probably right, in my case I probably fall into the back seat because of a lack of confidence. When I'm on the flats, I'm very confident and so ski very aggressively. When I get into moguls for some reason, I am very timid. When I get to a section of moguls where the pitch is very slight, I can let go and do much better.

As for the short swing turns, I don't try to turn a hundred times per foot, I keep them balanced and on edge. I did do the wedge drills that are outlined on the ML video.

Thanks!!!!
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby coloradomogulskier » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:01 pm

Short swing doesn't necessarily mean quick or a set amount in a predetermined distance. IT is simply a turn executed in a narrow defined space. And the width of that space isn't fixed. Usually a instructor demonstrates the turns that he is teaching and in mogul lessons many instructors use one side of a slope to execute the short swing turns that will be incorporated into 3 dimensions with the addition of moguls.


By the way, I have been skiing flats all year this year. Last weekend was my 1st complete day in moguls. Even when Jeff Lind and the Bumpapoolza crew came out, I didn't ski any bumps. It took me that long this year to get ready.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby mjskier » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:34 pm

coloradomogulskier wrote:By the way, I have been skiing flats all year this year. Last weekend was my 1st complete day in moguls. Even when Jeff Lind and the Bumpapoolza crew came out, I didn't ski any bumps. It took me that long this year to get ready.


That's because you are old!
If you were still 48, like some of us, you'd be ready on the first day of the season :twisted:
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby mitch236 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:43 pm

coloradomogulskier wrote:By the way, I have been skiing flats all year this year. Last weekend was my 1st complete day in moguls. Even when Jeff Lind and the Bumpapoolza crew came out, I didn't ski any bumps. It took me that long this year to get ready.


I understand what you mean but I only get about 14 days of skiing a year and have to do it within that time frame. I don't expect to look like a WC, but I do want to feel confident going down the run.

BTW, I'm 51!
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby coloradomogulskier » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:16 pm

Jeesh,,, not even close to 48 here yet.... I usually get five days in and then charge the bumps.

Sadly, and i am speaking only for myself is I find I really don't hit really good fitness level for the bumps until about 40 days on the snow. Then it seems everything is really rocking after that.

When I competed, I was getting in around 100 days. In the last few years I have been around 50-70 and I have seen some cracks in the armour.

But to the point, with 14 days a year on the snow,, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself if a certain concept or technique doesn't click. I see young skiers who spend an entire season on just one aspect and sometimes it takes them several months to get dialed in.

Young skiers and older skiers share the same problems in that their bodies are in a relatively fast state of change. youth skiers learning these concepts have to relearn the technique every year while they are growing. Older Skiers ( 40+) begin to see year to year fitness expectations harder to achieve. I am 35 and I am seeing some small changes in recovery times, Arthritis, Constricted ligaments....

If I take a big hit now, I don't recover and if i am working on something, i force it like before.


So at 14 days, i would search for the cream and pay your dues while maximizing the fun factor. I take for granted my situation.. LOve Colorado................
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby CometKat » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:30 pm

mitch236 wrote: I only get about 14 days of skiing a year

Time to move. There is nothing better for your skiing than living close to the slopes. I used to put in a huge effort to average 15 days per season. Then ten years ago I moved to within a half an hour from a ski area and have averaged 54 days per year since. Skiing, and especially skiing bumps, is all about practice.
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Re: Need alot of help!!!

Postby mjskier » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:59 pm

coloradomogulskier wrote:Jeesh,,, not even close to 48 here yet....

I knew that. Just giving you a hard time... :D

But yeah, the fitness and number of days on the slopes make a huge difference. Last year was my worst season in a great while, barely getting more than 10 days, and I could really feel the difference, even working out and playing indoor soccer regularly.
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