Legs Together help?

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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby sunshine 50 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:59 am

You guys have lost me :shock:
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby skinnyskis » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:56 pm

sunshine 50 wrote:You guys have lost me :shock:

I hear you loud and clear but after thinking about this long and hard I've at least got an opinion (I could be totally wrong though)
mitch236 wrote:I'm certainly no expert but I would think that if you actively plantar flex your foot, you will end up in the back seat. Try it now on the floor, if you push the balls of your feet into the floor, you will fall backwards. I think you want to "feel" the pressure on the balls of your feet because of being forward. Again, while standing, lean forward. You should feel the pressure on the balls of your feet. I think that's what you are trying to achieve in your boots.

The only thing I would add to this is that if you are standing on the floor, this time leaning forward in ski boots, of course you’re going to feel a lot of pressure on the front of the boot.
Stephen Fearing from his video wrote:Basic Position - Basic body position, the neutral position is a standard it doesn’t change through all this skiing, you always want to have this neutral position. To start out with we’ll think about standing straight in the boot (tall), then I want you to just flex the knee into the front, knee and ankle, show us like the lower leg is totally relaxed and the knee is also relaxed, most of the tension is in the thigh and in the hip area, you want to keep the hip position straight over the arch, of course you’re going to feel a lot of pressure on the front of the boot at this point.

The only thing I would add to this is that because you are obviously standing (in basic neutral it goes without saying) You should feel the pressure on the balls of your feet.

In summary my belief - in neutral position the lower leg (including ankle) is totally relaxed - sensory cues of shin and ball of foot pressure will let us know our body position is good or correct. Relaxed ankles in the fore-aft plane are the ideal but likely unattainable in moguls (navigating a mine field of moguls may or will almost certainly cause us to deviate from neutral but the standard or ideal remains the same), the best we can hope for is to use ankle flex to somewhat evenly distribute pressure between the shin and ball of foot in order to maintain balance.

hint - 100% shin or 100% ball of foot pressure is sure to get us into trouble - issues like pushing with the toes and the like.
Skiing with good posture since 2008 - thanks MS.net
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby sunshine 50 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:53 pm

What works best for me if you are in the proper stack position you will automatically have even pressure across the bottom of your foot, bent ankle with constant pressure on the shin, 1/4 bent knees to start poles always out front and your head up looking down the mountain. My attitude is to attack the bump run. So I always at the beginning of a tough bump run I'm always reminding myself to stay stacked. You have to commit 100%
So much is muscle memory and building your confidence to attack each run.
These guys all have great advice and from what I've seen on videos they can ski bumps.
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby TTorse » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:26 pm

perplexed wrote:that is true, but then how does one achieve pushing their tips into the troughs? If you pull your heels up and to your butt while absorbing, as BushMogulMaster wrote in the guide, it seems like plantar flexion is the only thing that would aid in this. Bush also wrote that you should put so much pressure on the balls of your feet that you shouldn't be able to wiggle your toes. Again, I can't accomplish that without plantar flexing and doing a calf raise almost. I always dorsiflexed in my boots, but since ski boots resist against your shin, my weight would always end on over my heels, even if other skiers thought I looked forward. So this basically reverts back to my "one more thing" post to Bush. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I've never found any advice on what the foot/ankle should be doing in the ski boots while bumping. If he could go over how the ankle should be flexing to maintain heavy ball of foot pressure through a complete absorption/extension cycle that would really clear this up. I've been trying to find the answer for years.


Plantar Flexion in ski boots, especially in the bumps is no good; you don't want to be up on your tip toes. And even if you're not on your tip toes but you are plantarflexed, you will certainly be in the back seat. You should be dorsiflexed at all times, but this is a passive dorsiflexion which is achieved not by a contraction of the tibialis anterior, but by a slight bend in the knees. Put your boots on and stand tall; now bend your knees slightly. You should notice that your ankles will become dorsiflexed without tibialis anterior contraction as the shins thus press against the boot tongues; hence a passive flexion. You should also notice that the majority of your weight will be on the balls of your feet. You might still be able to wiggle your toes a bit (though your toes will certainly not rise off the bottom of your boots as you wiggle them, that's good). Other than remaining in this passive dorsiflexion your ankles shouldn't really be doing anything at all. You are now properly balanced, properly stacked. This is essentially just a reiteration of what sunshine 50 and skinnyskis recently stated. Next aspect: pushing the tips into the troughs. Put on your skis and boots; lift one of your legs by pulling your heel to your butt. Now look at your ski. The tail will be near your butt, the tip will be on the ground, or barely off the ground. Now imagine you're on a slope with the crest of a bump underneath that ski. The entire, or nearly entire, ski will be in contact with the snow, the tip in particular, thanks to the angle you've created in this absorbed position with your heels pulled to your butt. Plus, you'll maintain shin-to-tongue pressure via the stacked position and passive dorsifexion. In the bumps, that's exactly what you want in order to drive that tip. If you pick one leg straight up (knee-to-chest instead of heel-to-butt) notice that the tail and tip of your ski are a similar distance off the ground. You'll also notice that it is necessary to contract the tibialis anterior in active dorsiflexion to keep proper shin-to-tongue pressure. Now, if you do this in the bumps you will be immediately in the back seat with ski tips losing contact with the snow. So, don't plantarflex, ever. Find the proper stacked position with passive dorsiflexion and maintain this position during every aspect of mogul skiing. Pull your heels to your butt during absorption, which will keep your skis in contact with the snow and allow you, thanks to the forward lean of the stacked position and the angle of your skis created via this proper absorption, to drive the tips into the troughs. Try these things out; find those proper positions. If you can't, then I have something else for you. We'll discuss that if it's necessary.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby perplexed » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:09 pm

TTorse wrote:
perplexed wrote:that is true, but then how does one achieve pushing their tips into the troughs? If you pull your heels up and to your butt while absorbing, as BushMogulMaster wrote in the guide, it seems like plantar flexion is the only thing that would aid in this. Bush also wrote that you should put so much pressure on the balls of your feet that you shouldn't be able to wiggle your toes. Again, I can't accomplish that without plantar flexing and doing a calf raise almost. I always dorsiflexed in my boots, but since ski boots resist against your shin, my weight would always end on over my heels, even if other skiers thought I looked forward. So this basically reverts back to my "one more thing" post to Bush. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I've never found any advice on what the foot/ankle should be doing in the ski boots while bumping. If he could go over how the ankle should be flexing to maintain heavy ball of foot pressure through a complete absorption/extension cycle that would really clear this up. I've been trying to find the answer for years.


Plantar Flexion in ski boots, especially in the bumps is no good; you don't want to be up on your tip toes. And even if you're not on your tip toes but you are plantarflexed, you will certainly be in the back seat. You should be dorsiflexed at all times, but this is a passive dorsiflexion which is achieved not by a contraction of the tibialis anterior, but by a slight bend in the knees. Put your boots on and stand tall; now bend your knees slightly. You should notice that your ankles will become dorsiflexed without tibialis anterior contraction as the shins thus press against the boot tongues; hence a passive flexion. You should also notice that the majority of your weight will be on the balls of your feet. You might still be able to wiggle your toes a bit (though your toes will certainly not rise off the bottom of your boots as you wiggle them, that's good). Other than remaining in this passive dorsiflexion your ankles shouldn't really be doing anything at all. You are now properly balanced, properly stacked. This is essentially just a reiteration of what sunshine 50 and skinnyskis recently stated. Next aspect: pushing the tips into the troughs. Put on your skis and boots; lift one of your legs by pulling your heel to your butt. Now look at your ski. The tail will be near your butt, the tip will be on the ground, or barely off the ground. Now imagine you're on a slope with the crest of a bump underneath that ski. The entire, or nearly entire, ski will be in contact with the snow, the tip in particular, thanks to the angle you've created in this absorbed position with your heels pulled to your butt. Plus, you'll maintain shin-to-tongue pressure via the stacked position and passive dorsifexion. In the bumps, that's exactly what you want in order to drive that tip. If you pick one leg straight up (knee-to-chest instead of heel-to-butt) notice that the tail and tip of your ski are a similar distance off the ground. You'll also notice that it is necessary to contract the tibialis anterior in active dorsiflexion to keep proper shin-to-tongue pressure. Now, if you do this in the bumps you will be immediately in the back seat with ski tips losing contact with the snow. So, don't plantarflex, ever. Find the proper stacked position with passive dorsiflexion and maintain this position during every aspect of mogul skiing. Pull your heels to your butt during absorption, which will keep your skis in contact with the snow and allow you, thanks to the forward lean of the stacked position and the angle of your skis created via this proper absorption, to drive the tips into the troughs. Try these things out; find those proper positions. If you can't, then I have something else for you. We'll discuss that if it's necessary.



This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks! Really detailed and straightforward. I understand what I was doing wrong and this Wednesday I get to bump again. I'm psyched to try my revamped technique. I was always using active Dorsiflexion and knee to chest absorption, which in turn would put me on my tails. I'm going to stick softer tongues in my fulltilts and have a go. The last part got me really curious, though. I don't want to waste your time, but could you give me a very brief summary of your "something else" Just so I could try it on the hill if I have trouble? This thread is incredibly refreshing. I would have been stuck in a rut without it, so I'd just like to thank everybody who took the time to contribute for helping me and others who were seeking similar advice to understand proper stacking and giving the tools for further progression.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby TTorse » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:28 pm

Glad that helps! That's what we're all on here for, to learn from each other and help each other out...My "something else" was simply going to be a few questions: What kind of boots do you have? What is the flex? And how much do you weigh? Those factors can potentially impact positioning. But you've already answered by stating that you wear Full Tilts. I happen to wear Full Tilts also; so very comfortable, and they have good forward lean. I have a 6 flex tongue in mine, which equates to approximately 90 on the normal flex scale. I weigh 180lbs and I am a high level skier. I would suggest a 6 flex tongue if you're on an 8 or a 10.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby perplexed » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:53 pm

Yeah I made the switch to Full Tilts this year after using Lange comps and it's been a lot of fun. Stuck in the larger forward lean shims and had a #6 tongue and called it a day. After what you, sunshine, mitch, blanton, skinnyskis, and bush said about balancing in the boots, I put them on in my room and thought maybe the tongues were still resisting too much. Definitely a lot less than my langes, but I only weigh 130. This week I'm trying out the #4 flex.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby TTorse » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:57 pm

Ah yes, if you only weigh 130 then you definitely want to go with the 4's.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby perplexed » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:02 pm

Ran my new setup yesterday and tried out the modified technique. I felt 100000x more balanced and in control. I want to thank you all again for the help!
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby mitch236 » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:18 am

Do you feel the boots helped? That was a question I posted a while back.

Also a question for TTorse; I weigh 165. I have Full Tilts and wonder which flex tongue you feel would work best?
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby TTorse » Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:17 pm

mitch236 wrote:Do you feel the boots helped? That was a question I posted a while back.

Also a question for TTorse; I weigh 165. I have Full Tilts and wonder which flex tongue you feel would work best?


What flex is your current tongue? Based on your weight I would think that you'd be fine with a 6 like I use. But it may depend on how hard you ski too. 4 would probably be a little soft for you at 165. Without knowing anything else, I would say 5 or 6.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby mitch236 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:31 am

Unfortunately, I haven't skied with the Full Tilts yet. I figured the 6 flex tongue would be best so I replaced the original 8 that came with them. My previous boots were way too upright (Chuck Martin mentioned it to me at his last mogul camp). I plan on experimenting with different tongues when I hit Vail in about a week. Hopefully there's snow!!
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby perplexed » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Sorry mitch, yes i love my full tilts. When i had langes i felt like i was always fighting them even when both screws were out and the spine had v's cut in. The full tilts personally fit my feet without modification and they dont impede my forward motion. I really felt it this weekend at okemo once i skied the 4 flex tongues. The 6's still felt much better than the langes, but i had to go an extra step since I'm so light.
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby mitch236 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:34 pm

I'm hoping that my post will get some more responses. I just returned from Vail where I tried both techniques on the flats. When I used my shin to apply forward pressure, I noticed my turns were more of a skidding turn and I felt more pressure on my heel in my boot. When I applied pressure to my toes, I felt much less pressure on my shins but my ski tips dug in and caused a very quick carve with very little skidding. Funny thing is when I used shin pressure/skidding, I felt better speed control than the arcing carved turns from toe pressure.

Since I am still mastering my short swing turns, which technique will serve me better in the long run?
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Re: Legs Together help?

Postby mitch236 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:01 pm

Btw, here's a clip from last week:

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